To me, there aren’t more vegans out there has to do with culture. Again, we’re constantly taught to veg*nism is wrong, misguided or even dangerous, so only a handful of people actually contemplate the consequences of their food choices. As for the actual killing of animals for food (and bringing them under our overall domination), we as humans do so, mostly because we can. We disregard the similarities that we share with out non-humans brethren and merely focus on our cognitive differences. That is what makes us specieists. Just like racism, sexism and other destructive isms, out there, the perpetrators (i.e. speciesists) ignore the inherent rights of their victims.

Hunting is always a very dicey subject, even though hunters comprise less than 10% of the population (at least here in America). I agree that hunting for food is more ethical than purchasing food that came from a slaughterhouse, but there are several questions one should ask themselves about the hunters in question. For instance, how many of them merely hunt for food? Do they mount their game and show it off to visiters in the homes? Do they get a rush when they shoot their kill? Also, hunting, is it really natural how humans do it? Is it really natural for a person to hide in a bush with a weapon yards and yards away? Perhaps the people should be fighting with their bare hands?

Oopsy, gtg for now. Work awaits!

@Joseph - I haven’t read Gary Francione but his blog looks interesting, I’ll definitely have a look. I wasn’t trying to adhere to any ideology, right now I’m trying to make sure I think critically about both sides and decide what makes sense. A lot of society’s rules that separate us from animals (don’t eat your own feces, don’t rape each other) developed because the majority of people agreed those things are wrong and harmful, and most of these rules are pretty consistent across cultures. I don’t want to say it’s ok to eat meat because “everyone else does”, but if there was really some deep wrongfulness to it, then why aren’t there more cultures that are traditionally vegetarian or vegan?

@Kris - you made the point that we’ve evolved past the need to do a lot of things, which is true, but I’m not convinced it’s necessarily always a good thing. We drive cars - but look how out of shape we’ve gotten, and how much pollution it causes. We live in houses and cities - but look how isolating this can be. We use computers - but look at how many people struggle with basic math and grammar these days because they rely on calculators and spellcheckers. We isolate ourselves from so much, and I’m wondering if veg*nism is just isolating ourselves from one more piece of nature that we aren’t comfortable with and would like to think we’ve moved past, when it’s really something that’s a part of life, that will end up being a mistake to lose in the long run.

I know this is a risky thing to say here but I sort of find myself agreeing with some hunters that I’ve heard about, who refuse to eat store bought packaged meat, but will hunt for food. The idea is that if you’re not comfortable killing an animal yourself, then you shouldn’t eat it. (And since I’m definitely not comfortable doing that, and never have been, I shouldn’t eat any meat, so maybe there’s my answer :) )

For what it’s worth, my wife (who is not vegetarian but respects my choices) and I also usually try to make bugs go outside rather than killing them, so I don’t think that’s extreme at all. Except for flies or mosquitoes, which can’t seem to take a hint.

For me, the “we are animals” argument is one that I really struggle to discuss with people. Yes, most definitely we are animals. But to use that argument is to use it selectively. How separate are we from being animals in our daily lives, driving in cars, living in houses, using computers? Humans, in evolving, have done everything they can to distance themselves from nature, from their innate animalness, to “rise above” it and be “civilized”. But how similar are we in our core? The important things in life- safety, being with our loved ones, these are things all creatures share.

We evolved into omnivores because we had to survive in the wild, during times of starvation. The pudge around my waistline, and the waistline of most Americans, the glutton, variety and availability of any food under the sun at stores and drive thrus is surely evidence that we are not in times of strife. Most people I know wouldn’t eat something that fell out of their hands and on to the street, much less hunt.

We have the extreme luxury of even being able to have this conversation. We live in a society where we can eat soley because it tastes good, not because we are starving or struggling to survive.* We can take pictures of food, talk about food, linger over large displays at grocery stores. Most people eat so often that they don’t actually know how to feel hunger, for at the slightest twinge in the gut they start munching on a snack. We are all guilty of this to a degree.

So why still eat animals? Why have we let every other aspect of our being evolve except our food sources? Sure, people fancy up a plate of meat with some parsley and a fancy sauce, but in reality it’s caveman food in a modern world. If you don’t feel the instinct to wring a squirrel’s neck and eat it when you’re walking down the street on your way to dinner, you’ve evolved out of searching for animals to eat. It doesn’t mean that your habits have evolved, though. You have to do that. If you do feel the instinct to catch a squirrel for dinner, than you have other issues that exceed this conversation. :)

We are animals, but we have progressed to a point of cognizance where we can rationalize and empathize. We are lucky to have these gifts. They are gifts, gifts that we can extend to help and aid our animal brethren. We are connected to eachother, undeniably, and we can use our stance as humans to help other species.

There is a huge disconnect between animals as pets and animals as food. I think the divide just continues to deepen, as people actually cook less and less and are less aware of what even goes into food. I had a coworker ask me the other day whether or not the dry cereal I was eating had eggs in it. Clearly not, as it was a vegan cereal, but also since when has there been egg in dried cereal?

These disconnects only exist because we allow them to. We allow ourselves to see cats as friends and cows as hamburgers. We allow ourselves to feel contempt rather than pity for a homeless person, because we don’t want to face the reality of the situation. We allow ourselves to shut the window when we over hear a neighbor questionably disciplining their child in their backyard. We read articles about racism, homophobia and violence in our newspapers, turn the page to read the funnies and then go back to work. We are taught these things, to put blinders up, the same way some people are taught to hate and others to love. It can sometimes make people feel like they are turning their backs on their roots, they way they were raised.

The truth hurts. It’s hard. It can make the world seem like a damn miserable place to be. But there are people fighting to make it better. And by taking responsibility for the disconnect we can help do our part.

It can be hard to stand up for anything in the world, especially when you’re standing up against a strong current of tradition, habits, cravings, societal “norm”, etc. But if we don’t ask these hard questions and hold up these hard truths, what’s the point?

You do have to draw a line. My husband and I do not kill bugs in our home, except by accident. We take them outside. This is extreme to some, not enough to others. You just have to decide what’s acceptable for you. There are plenty of fine points to debate, but those are side issues, distracting from the focal point of this post: people eating meat even when they know hard cold truths about it.

I don’t even know if I said anything of substance in this post, as my mind is flooded with concepts and dialogue, but I am struggling to structure it. Thanks for reading.

*This conversation is really meant to address the middle class folks who can afford food regularly, etc. The distribution and access to food debates are for another time. There are so many “what if”s that can be posed for so many situations, I’m trying to keep my argument clear. And also, when I say “you” I mean you in a general sense, regarding humanity. I’m not singling you out, Tom, or anyone else reading this, I’m just rambling.

Of course humans are animals, but humans have the capacity to make moral decisions. To simply adhere to the “other animals do it” ideology is a fallacy, as other animals rape each other, eat their own feces, etc. We know better than to do such things, and that entails eating other animals when there is absolutely no reason to.

Have you ever read Gary Francione? He deconstructs our relationship to our nonhuman animals as good as anyone. http://www.abolitionistapproach.com

I’ve never tried the Tofurky ‘turkey’, but I have enjoyed the ‘cold cuts’. I’m more of a rice and beans kind of guy.

I do know how to cook, and enjoy cooking; most of the time when I cook I don’t use “fake” meat except when I just want something quick. Just tonight I made eggplant parmesan with eggplant from our local farmer’s market, it came out pretty good. (Joseph - Tofurkey is *nasty*, I made the mistake of trying it once, several years ago :) )

As far as what’s natural or not, animals kill other animals for food all the time, I don’t see how that’s not part of how things work in nature. Regardless of how special we think we are, we humans are still animals, and as much as some people dislike it, and seem to want to deny it by living in cities, we’re still part of nature. What I’m trying to figure out for myself is if it’s really unnatural and wrong for humans to kill animals for food, or if it’s just that the way we do it has become so perverted and removed from anything that happens in nature that it’s become wrong. Where’s the line between repressing some behavior is wrong and repressing something that we’ve just convinced ourselves we should be ashamed of?

My reason for choosing wild caught/grass fed isn’t to make it “comfortable”, it’s choosing to eat meat in a way that (I feel) is less harmful to our environment and more in line with how humans have interacted with nature for centuries.

Honestly, the first time I had meat after over a decade of being vegetarian it was more of a test of myself, and my boundaries, than any kind of craving for it. Maybe it was a mistake, I don’t know. I still can’t say that I really “crave” meat, that’s why I rarely eat it, but I was somewhat surprised to not find that it tasted like death, I really expected to be disgusted and be reassured that I’d been making the right choice all of these years.

Sorry if my comment seemed offensive - Ryan was expressing disbelief over something that’s been on my mind a lot lately and I thought I’d share my perspective.

When you have to set ground rules to justify doing something, you know in your heart of heart’s that it’s wrong. When I make lentil stew I don’t have to tell justify eating it, I can just make it.

Perhaps your real problems lies in not knowing how to cook. I don’t know you, but if you’re relying on faux meats, you may just be replicating omni meals and therefore it’s easy to crave something that you are in the habit of eating. There is a whole realm of food out there to explore. Once you get past Gardenburger not only does veg food taste better, but your palate (and hopefully your perspective) will change and the meat you crave will taste like what it truly is: death. Free-range death is still death.

Also, one doesn’t have to consume faux meat when one is veg*n. Those products can be seen as helping people make a transition to veg*nism. I for one rarely buy Tofurky and the like.

The whole “fake meat” thing is actually one reason why I’m questioning it. Sure, you can get substitute meat products, but they’re almost all full of artificial flavors and are heavily processed. Is that really more natural than eating meat from animals that were raised naturally? (and here I mean cage free, grass fed, wild caught, etc; from local family farms if possible; and I know that you need to take these labels with a grain of salt but it’s the best you can really do short of running a farm yourself) I definitely oppose factory farming, feedlots, and things like that, but I think there might be a place for animals raised for meat in smaller farms that practice biodynamic farming; and sustainable wild-caught seafood.

I’m starting to feel like a mostly vegetarian diet with some carefully chosen meat occasionally is the right choice for me. The main thing I keep getting hung up on is what makes it ok to eat some animals, but not others? It’s not like it’s a law of nature, each culture has different rules. But then again, so many cultures have meat as such a central part of their diet that there must be some core (evolutionary?) reason. The “I like the taste” argument might actually have something to it, would so many people find it appetizing if it wasn’t natural to eat meat?

Sorry for the long-ish post, I’m still confused about this and where I stand, but that’s been my thought process, since you asked :-)