(Sorry for the haphazard posting this week… it turned out to be a busier one than I expected. I’ll continue the series through the weekend.)
Veg Blog reader Charles sent this question:
I’m a fairly new vegan. I’m sure other new vegetarians or vegans are likely to encounter long time vegetarians who went back to eating meat “for health reasons.” They realize, sometimes after 10 or more years, that they are not getting enough protein or iron or whatever.
As a new vegan, I have no response to them because I figure they’ve been a vegetarian (for many years). Who am I - a new vegan - to question their conclusion?
How do new vegans handle ex-vegans who think the vegan diet is unhealthy?
This is an interesting question and I’m curious what other readers have to say about it. Here’s my take on it.
Whenever I hear from an ex-vegan or vegetarian, my gut reaction is probably a bit judgemental. After all, maybe there are some legitimate health reasons that certain people need to go back to meat, fish, dairy, or eggs. I’m not a nutritionist, so how would I know for sure?
But here’s the thing: most of the ex’s I’ve encountered that stopped being veg for health reasons were told to do so by their primary care physician. We all know that doctors don’t receive adequate nutrition educaton* (I’ve gotten the “how do you get your protein?” question from doctors a few too many times, myself), so I don’t know that I’d necessarily take their advice without consulting a knowledgeable nutritionist first.
If you’re comfortable enough in the situation, probe the ex-veg for more information. If they say they had to start eating meat again for the protein, ask them how much protein they need to eat in a day (the average man only needs 55-60 grams a day). I’m willing to bet that most don’t know. Then point out that it’s really easy to get enough protein if you’re eating a diet with varied beans, nuts whole grains, etc. When my wife was pregnant, she regularly got 80-90 grams of protein a day.
If iron is their thing, ask them about supplementing, fortified foods, or whether they tried eating iron rich foods with vitamin C (while avoiding tea and coffee) to increase absorption.
The point is, in most cases it’s not a lack of meat that’s the problem, but a lack of nutrients or a poorly planned diet. Look at Donald Watson. Dude was a vegan before there was even the word “vegan.” (Literally. He invented it.) Watson died in 2005 at 95 years old. If you can find some interviews he did in the last few years, you’ll be amazed at how sharp and insightful he was, right up until the end. In the last decade of his life, he “climbed many of the major peaks of the Lake District” in northwest England. If someone can be vegan for over 60 years, most of it during a time when there were no vegan convenience foods and less was known about vegan nutrition, I find it very hard to believe that a vegan diet can rationally be considered “unhealthy.”
Of course, this only handles the reasons behind health-related switches back to the dark side. How to handle this in a socially acceptible manner is a whole ‘nother problem. As with any time you’re trying to make a point that may be taken as a criticism, it’s all in the tone of your voice and how you present yourself. Gently try and get them to open up about not only why they started eating meat again, but whether it bothers them that they had to do so. Ask them whether they would give up meat/dairy/eggs again if they could do so without risking their health. Perhaps they’ll say yes, particularly if they were veg for ethical reasons. At this point, let it go.
Give it a few hours or a day and do a little research online. Then, drop them an e-mail saying, “I was thinking about our conversation earlier and came across a few articles that you might want to check out…” Enlist the help of the PCRM or a vegan forum. Get the idea in their head that, hey, maybe being veg again is possible.
Who I find really difficult to deal with are militant ex-vegans. They are far worse than any so called “militant vegans” I’ve ever met. These are the people who feel they have the experience and, therefore, the right to disparage veganism or vegetarianism because they “used to be one of those.” I don’t know about you, but I can never imagine giving up veganism and I can’t imagine any truly committed vegan ever going back to animal products and disparaging their former lifestyle at the same time. These militant ex-vegans with a chip on their shoulder may not be worth engaging in an argument. Let them blow off their steam and, in turn, look like blowhards to everyone else. Lead by example and just leave them with a simple phrase like, “Huh. That’s weird. I’ve always thought it’s pretty easy/healthy/fun being vegan.” There aren’t many ways they can come back against that without sounding like a fool.
To summarize… for those that are regretfully ex-veg: discuss, question, research, inform. For antagonistic ex-vegans: don’t get dragged into arguments. They’re not worth the trouble.
* Did I really just link to an article by the California Table Grape Commission as a source? Yikes. How about this one instead.
23 Responses
Charles
29|Mar|2007 1Thanks, Ryan, for such a thorough and thoughtful response.
Great advice on following up with an email. It’s a good way to put forward different views… articulated by those who have more experience and knowledge than me. I will keep that option in mind next time.
Also, thank you for telling me about Donald Watson. I find it strange that this is the first time I’ve come across his name, even though I’ve been vegan for almost a year. What an amazing man!! Truly inspirational.
Like you said, if he can live 60 years on a vegan diet and thrive, how can anyone say it’s unhealthy.
Thanks again, Ryan, for all that you do. :)
Charles
Marcy
30|Mar|2007 2Thanks, a topic I have never seen blogged about, with some great suggestions. Although what I find a lot given as a reason falls into 2 categories not mentioned in it:
1) “It’s too hard to permanently give up dairy/meat” (I have yet to hear eggs mentioned, but who knows) i.e. the “I’m weak and that stuff is mighty tasty” argument, usually in combination with “most people aren’t as strong-willed as you/you can do it but most people could never stay that way”.
2) “I used to be veg/vegan, but my boyfriend/family/exchange program family/party hosts wasn’t, so I gave it up, because it was just easier to all eat the same thing”. I can’t tell you how many women I’ve run into who have given up being veg or vegan for their man. Most notably the “I cook for both of us, and he doesn’t like that food, so I just went back to eating meat and dairy so we could get along”. This sounds like it wouldn’t come up much in this oh-so-modern age, but trust me, I literally can’t count the amount of times I’ve hear variations on it especially relating to the boyfriendhusband angle. The ‘cooking for him’ reason is a direct quote from an ex-vegan who would put down my veganism in front of our roommates during my study abroad, as is the exchange family reason (which I didn’t buy, because I’d just been in that situation myself, and handled it entirely differently…same goes for siginificant other & fmaily reasons, actually).
Sonia
30|Mar|2007 3I’m an ex-vegetarian because I became so violently physically and mentally ill as a vegetarian I was nonfunctional. My health turned around profoundly within six weeks.
I know an ex-vegetarian who suffered from pemphigus, and after years of profound suffering and trying more and more restrictive vegan and raw dieting, went into remission when he adopted the diet for Blood Type O (meat, fruit, veg, no grains).
I know an ex-vegetarian who’s depression went into remission when he went back on meat. Almost within days, after months of intense pain.
I know an ex-vegetarian who’s Crohn’s disease went into remission when he went on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (fruit, meat, veg, no grains, sugar, or lactose).
I know an ex-vegatarian who’s fibromyalgia greatly improved when she increased the animal protein in her diet, and reduced the grains and starches.
Shall I I go on?
Were they advised by primary care practicioners? NO. Every single person I mentioned was either advised by a naturopath familiar with the facts of human physiology being optimized for omnivorism (some of you are a varient that can handle veganism, most of us are not), or familar with Dr D’Adamo’s work. Others searched and searched and searched and finally just choose to try a radical new way of eating to heal. Clearly what they were doing wasn’t working.
Please see http://www.beyondveg.com
We are animals, too. We should not suffer by eating food we cannot digest or absorb nurioushment from.
cannibal vegetarian
30|Mar|2007 4A naturopath who advised vegetarians to start eating animal products again, hmm, his name wasn’t Stephen Byrnes by any chance, was it? He was a naturopath and ex-vegetarian who used to be quite vocal about turning his vegetarian clients onto meat…till he dropped dead of a stroke, in his thirties. (To be fair it might have been stress that got him, judging from his flaming reviews of pro-veg books on amazon.com.)
Anyway, anecdotal “I knew a person” evidence isn’t much to go on. Could have been anything. And, could you further explain your statement that most human beings can’t physiologically handle being vegan?
Marcy
02|Apr|2007 5Thanks cannibal vegetarian. Since there’s no laws requiring people to go veg or vegan or organic or anything else, it seems silly how many people try to convince us with scare tactics and urban health legends to eat meat/animal products again. It just seems like out of all the problems in the world, and including all the folks go do go veg/vegan and stay that way perfectly fine, that there are bigger faux-fish to fry…
bazu
02|Apr|2007 6I think it’s just the over-zealousness of the newly converted. Just like new vegans can be too enthusiastic and talk about it all the friggin’ time (I know I did), new former-vegans might need everyone to believe they’ve seen the light. I hope they grow out of it. (How many times have I heard that someone just NEEDED chicken. What exactly is in chicken that makes your body NEED it so badly anyway??) That all being said, I don’t enjoy getting caught in a conversation with an ex-veg with an axe to grind.
Garth
06|Apr|2007 7Just to add a slightly different perspective to this, I was vegetarian, stopped being vegetarian “for health reasons” and have since returned to my vegetarian ways.
I was originally a vegetarian for about 8 months for ethical reasons. I had gained a mess of weight (~50lbs), was tired all the time no matter how much I slept and felt generally crappy. I looked at my life, my health, and saw that all of these problems started about two months into my vegetarianism. I attributed it to that. So I went back to eating meat for the sake of my health. Within a week or two I was feeling a little better, lost a couple of pounds and was seeing improvement. A month later, I got way worse, put on another ten pounds and felt worse than when I was a vegetarian. I went to the doctor and was diagnosed with hypothyroidism. The doctor said it was unrelated to my vegetarianism, from studies he had read it *may* (inconclusive, could’ve happened anyway) have been my habit of eating excessive soy products that triggered an already existing problem. From what I read later, it seems like soy is fine for people with healthy thyroids but I have a family history of thyroid issues and it may have sped along a condition that was already on it’s way.
With my doctors encouragement, I went back to vegetarianism. It’s been about a year since I went back to being veg. I feel great now. He put me on some meds, I still eat soy in moderation (~once a week). I’m losing weight, no further issues.
While I do agree everyone’s body functions differently and there may be people who need higher than normal levels of protein or iron (I try to keep an open mind) — attributing my health problems to my vegetarianism was a mistake. It was probably stronger than a coincidence because of my overindulgence in soy products but that’s not because of vegetarianism. So, I understand the quitting vegetarianism for health reasons but from my experience, if you’re experiencing health problems after changing your diet, it’s worth a visit to the doctor before doing anything else drastic.
My $0.02…
jason
06|Apr|2007 8i’m just gonna be straight here. people are pussies. that’s it. they don’t care enough about the ethics of it, they’re lazy and easily misled. i’ve been vegan 17 years and never been better.
people love to hear good news about their bad habits as dr. mcdougall points out. as for sonia and her many ex friends. i call bullshit on that one. people were either never really into it or too lazy/ignorant etc etc.
Kris
08|Apr|2007 9This is a really interesting topic. I’ve been vegan for a decent amount of time and feel comfortable defending myself when confronted, but the thing that really gets me is when you get the older ex-hippie crowd of who were “vegetarians” years ago and who give you that attitude, like they think that your veganism is a charming faze that they went through, but one day you, too, will grow out of it and eat fois gras with the best of them. I get really tired of this idea that my lifestyle is that that weak and subject to change.
Kris
08|Apr|2007 10And of course, I have more to say after “submit”. :)
The biggest (biggest!) thing about eating a vegetarian or vegan diet is what you are eating. When people first go vegetarian they typically continue to eat an omninorous diet, minus the meat, therefore consuming “side dishes” in mass quantity. My inquiry when people say they were unhealthy or gained weight when they were veg is “What were you eating?” Man (and woman) can’t live on PB&J, mashed potatoes, chips and Coke alone! I think that if you’re willing to put in the time to learn about proper nutrition and to cook for yourself anyone can thrive on a vegan diet. And if you don’t want to put in the energy, well then that’s a whole different topic.
cannibal vegetarian
09|Apr|2007 11Belatedly to Marcy–you’re welcome. I’m only a vegetarian myself but have high regard for vegans and aim to be one myself someday. It certainly does seem to elicit some weird emotional responses from some meat eaters.
angela
14|Apr|2007 12This is such an emotional topic for me. I was vegetarian for 8 years and vegan for six. When I transitioned to a vegan diet from a junk-food vegetarian diet at the age of 24, I experienced some of the most wonderful health benefits I’d ever known - weight loss, increase in energy, etc. I kept the McDougall diet from time to time, losing more weight and feeling great. Then I turned 30 and my health became a nightmare. While on the McDougall diet I was diagnosed with gallstones, which led to two surgeries, and am now diagnosed with gastroparesis, meaning that my stomach fails to empty itself within the normal amount of time. This means that I am never hungry, am constantly distended so that I can’t fit into my clothes, and occasionally nauseus. I’m lucky too, because most with this condition throw up everything that they eat. I’ve since realized that I need to pack as much nutrition into each tiny meal as I possibly can. In the midst of all this, I’ve discovered intolerances to carageenan, which is in a lot, but not all, soy products and also to corn. I can no longer eat legumes because no doctor, naturopathic or allopathic will take bloating and distention seriously if you consume beans of any kind. Now I eat dairy and fish, and you won’t hear me calling myself a vegetarian because I don’t believe that a person who eats fish is a vegetarian. No one without this condition has any idea what I’ve gone through this past year. I am trying to get my master’s degree and my health has nearly ruined my efforts. I have no desire to spread the word about the harmful effects of a vegan diet, because I believe that every person’s body is different, and that it really probably is the best diet for most people, but not all. It was obviously the best diet for me for several years, but I have to deal with the fact that it is no longer the right choice for me. There are some ex-vegans who won’t try and talk you out of your choices and perhaps we all need to accept the fact that everyone has different needs.
groundhog
11|Oct|2007 13Hello…
Just like to add my own story here…after years of reading about what might be the perfect diet for humans, and short experiments with such things as macrobiotics, and just plain old vegetarianism, I was very healthy, but constantly reading about health and diet and finally fell into veganism. A few months after that, began eating according to Dr. McDougall’s plan. Right away, my daughter’s ibs improved dramatically, and we were all encouraged. But also right away, I began having similar symptoms to ibs, for the first time in my life. Other McDougallers said this was normal after switching from SAD to McDougalling, just temporary, etc., so I ignored it. Even though the thought never occurred to me that I’d never experienced this with other experiments in diet that I’d tried out previously. Time went along, life was busy, and I got used to ignoring my symptoms, which became worse and worse over the years. By the 10th year of McDougalling (my only McDougall slip-ups were that I never quit coffee for more than a few months at a time, and we would eat out, about once every two or three months, in either Japanese or Indian restaurants, and have vegan dishes with oil added…we ordered a vegan pizza now and then too, but the place where we got that was not into using much oil, so it was much lower fat if it was vegan)– I was 100% vegan for over 10 years, and 99% oil free during that time. My health got so terrible, and I had gotten so used to just ignoring, even denying my problems, and finally it came to the point where I HAD to figure out what was wrong…I was sick each and every day…BAD sick, and looked terrible too. I was starving and eating tons and tons of food each day, thinking this is what McDougall said to do.
After lots of digging and trial and error, and reading over discussion boards of celiac organizations, I discovered, through a lot of difficulty and a lot of TIME, that apparently for me, all of the bread, pasta, grainy foods I was eating abundantly in place of the stuff I’d dropped from my diet had instigated either a gluten intolerance or full-blown celiac disease. It took me 18 months to get back to anywhere near normal, and along the way, during the healing of my chewed up intestines, I became intolerant to some other foods.
This idea, of gluten intolerance or other carbohydrate intolerance, lectin intolerance, etc., doesn’t seem to go over well in discussion with most other cooked vegans. The raw folks are quite open to the idea; however, my attempts at being raw have all been failures. Now I eat fish, lots of fish, becuase I can’t eat soy anymore. Corn is questionable in small amounts. I took up eggs to have somethign to eat, and now seem to have on and off intolerance of them too.
I feel the McDougall diet screwed up my body. I’ve seen others on his message board with things like ulcerative colitis, different autoimmune diseases, diabetes, etc., who didn’t seem to be doing well with either the gluten or other starches or lectins in the legumes, etc. They are usually treated as just not following the rules…there is big denial going on there, and they either get worse by sticking ever more strictly to ridiculously limited forms of the diet, or they disappear from the board.
This is my story of veganism…not only didn’t work for me, but turned me from a healthy person to a sicko. I don’t wanna be militant or angry, but it’s hard to be happy about it. I would have liked hearing a litte bit of warning that so much grain could possibly harm some people…maybe I would have listened to it. I remember my old SAD days of eating, when I was healthy,
happy, and even skinny, and could eat and enjoy whatever I wanted…they’re gone forever now, because I can never eat
anything with gluten in it ever again, and have to be extremely careful about what I eat, have to watch out for other intolerances that tend to pop up out of nowhere, etc. Starch-based veganism is obviously not for everyone…too bad most people find that out after the fact. Now, in addition to having to be careful about my food selection, I also have to wrangle with my own ethical issues over eating fish, but havne’t found out another way to just have enough to eat.
Carla
07|Jan|2008 14My experience as a raw vegan (9 months)
The Good:
Lost weight (down to a 4/6), improved digestion (for a few months)
The Bad:
BAD mood all of the time, no matter what I ate. Very heavy and extremely painful periods within a month of starting that diet, long cycles.
The Ugly:
Gray teeth (and they are still gray ), hair falling out, increased hypothyroidism, more estrogen dominance, increased ovarian cysts, horribly depressed in the last two months. The teeth part is frustrating because I was blessed with naturally white, straight (w/o braces) teeth and now I can hardly smile because I cant get used to gray, dingy teeth. Now I’m worried about the health of my teeth overall.
That doesn’t make the “good” part sound so good. I broke that cycle when I had salmon and brown rice for Thanksgiving.
Now I eat a diet of humanly raised, grass fed beef, chicken, limited fruits, lots of vegetables and plenty of fats (raw butter, coconut oil) and fermented foods and beverages. I have not gone back to eating grains because of my compromised digestion and gluten intolerance.
I have never been better health wise in my entire life. I’m not longer horribly depressed and suicidal, my weight is still down, I have normal cycles, my thyroid levels are normal, no more ovarian cysts, etc and have tons of energy.
My brother on the other hand, has been vegan for the past 15 years and have done very well. Different strokes for different folks and we should accept that no particular diet works for everyone.
Joseph
10|Jan|2008 15Humanely raised animals…what a crock!
Fuck happy meat!
Rachel
13|Jan|2008 16I have MS, and have never fully adopted a “vegan” diet.
A while back, I cut out eggs & dairy and noticed my symptoms got increasingly better, so I kept doing it and kept seeing improvements.
I slowly started to cut out meat, and I noticed that my symptoms got increasingly worse. I thought “Oh, it’s just the B12″ and started taking a B12 supplement. That didn’t help. Apparently, my body does not use B12 efficiently. I still take B12 supplements once a month (sub-lingual) but I do eat meat infrequently because my body simply needs the B12 at this point. And using fortified products just does not give it an adequate source for some reason.
cdaws
17|Jan|2008 17My family has been vegan for six months. I am 29, my husband is 34 and our children are 9, 7, and 22 months. We have never felt better in our lives. I lost 16 pounds right away and the depression I have struggled with most of my life completly disappeared. My 7 year old daughter’s chronic constipation cleared up almost overnight and our over all moods and productivity has improved.
When a person eats meat they are not only ingesting whatever hormones and pesticides that the animal has ingested but they are also eating any illness that animal may have had. Cows are often drug to the kill-floor because they are too ill to walk there. YUM! There is also the fact that the animals who are slaughtered are fully aware of what is happening to them, which triggers several physiological reactions, such as a spike in blood pressure and a dump of adrenaline into the body. again…YUM! When you eat animals and animal products you are eating horror and pain, anguish and terror, suffering and cruelty. Want some fries with that torture?
cdaws
17|Jan|2008 18If people would be intelligent about their food cxhoices when making the swir=tch to veganism they would’net suffer so much. I have cut nearly all whites (flour, pasta, sugar) out of my family’s diet at home. We eat lots of fruits, vegetables, soy products, whole grains and nuts. If you think you can survive on a diet of pasta and fritos then you WILL feel like shit. Try having a green vegetable once in a while. The B12 vitamin is the only legitimate arguement to not being vegan but most people can get that from supplements.
On another note, humans stop making the enzyme lactase after the age of 4. Which means we cannot digest 95% of the lactose in our bodies. That means we must not be intended to drink milk past the age of 4! In some cases it begans to disappear at the age of 18 months. We are the ONLY species on the planet that drinks the milk of another species. Cows are NOT milk-producing animals any more than we are. The only time they produce milk is when they have a baby to feed. So the farmers take their calf, sell it for veal and reimpregnate the cow. For an average of five years the cattle go through this horrifying treatment and then they are ground up for burgers. Things that make you go hmmmmm.
happy
18|Jan|2008 19I have enjoyed reading all of these different opinions and experiences. I am newly vegan- went from cooking and eating meat and dairy ALL the time to none- over night. It felt like the right ting to do for so many reasons- raising and slaughter of these creatures to the hormones and crap injected into them. I just decided to give it up…all of it. I have noticed a difference in the way I feel- good most of the time but sleepy some of the time. I contribute the sleepiness to my body actually ‘working’ on my body without all of the dead animals and cheese schmucking it all up. Ive been researching B12 and how to get it…so Im going to suppliment and see how that goes…
I totally agree w. cdaws- you are right- all of it- yukko!
What is this McDougallers thing? never heard it before today- I plan on researching it- sounds dangerous and not somewhere I want to go;)
My husb does not participate or agree w. me- Im dealing w. that - I think that he will come around to actually enjoy some of the food I make- even if he wants to add sausage to it… Friends and family are very supportive- I have a Dinner Club w. the girls and they want to have a vegan meal once a month in support of me. Thought that was nice of them. I really hope I do not have the same fate as some of you all- that would really suck to HAVE to go back for health reasons. That would be the only reason to ever go back to contributing to the torture and consumption of other lives. Anyhoo. just wanted to share.
skinny (white) bitches « Vegans of Color
01|Feb|2008 20[…] I’ve also heard folks arguing that this is a good way to get the “chick lit” crowd interested in veganism. Stealth conversion, like Latham’s quote above would seem to indicate. But from my own experiences, & from what I’ve heard other folks talking about, those who convert to veg*nism for health reasons (I’m being generous & putting the “I want to be a skinny bitch” crowd under “health” although really it’s more about appearance & weight loss) are less likely to stick with it, unless they also have a strong ethical reason for eating the way they do. Is this just going to end up with a crap ton of ex-vegans in a few months? (& we know what a pain in the ass they can be.) […]
Jesse
04|Feb|2008 21I’ve actually been vegan for almost 2 years now after reading Skinny Bitch. The humor of the title and the frankness of the writers really attracted me to buy the book–the info. inside it kept me vegan. Perhaps it would be wise to not judge how people fall into veganism, but rather embrace them once they are there. It is this sort of hyper-critical holier-than-thou mentality that scares many people away from veganism (acting as though your veganism is somehow more pure since you don’t care about your waist size). If someone stops eating animals and their secretions because they want a smaller ass, then I say score for the animals. The fact that someone would go vegan because they want to be a “skinny bitch” is a sign that veganism is going mainstream and that’s a beautiful thing.
Bitching Without The Skinny : Elaine Vigneault
14|Feb|2008 22[…] lying vegetarians - the people who eat meat but call themselves vegetarian. Samhita is one of those ex-vegans who think it’s funny to joke about buying fur coats. They think that qualifies them somehow […]
The First Vegan: Donald Watson | Vegan Soapbox
15|Feb|2008 23[…] From Vegblog. […]
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