Anti-vegan media bias
After the so-called “vegan” parents (who used cod liver oil) neglected their child, now the accused murderer of Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn is being identified as a vegan animal-rights activist, even though it doesn’t seem to have any relevancy to his motive. Interestingly, according to this AP article, he doesn’t sound like a super-hardliner and Fortuyn had “reasonable views on the bio-industry… Fortuyn believed that new agricultural policy needed to be animal friendly.”
I never really noticed it before, but there is a pretty disturbing media bias in reporting anything to do with veganism.
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I’m always puzzled by meat-eaters who seek out vegetarian/vegan sites just to harass…wtf!?
Ryan and Little Sister…you guys rock…
Thanks for speaking up for all of us!
I have met extreme vegans, they were so radical dumbasses that even considered the rights of fungus and bacteria. I, as a biologist, couldn’t stop a burst of massive laugh as I heard such a grotesque contradiction of everything. First, their own existence comes into conflict with their beliefs, every second of their life living beings are being destroyed by them: plants they eat, intestinal bacteria, skin microorganisms, microorganisms in food, bacteria being destroyed in an infection, every aspect of life creates death for others. Thinking like these people do, if their existence originates death, then they should commit suicide, if they don’t, then they would be the biggest hypocrites in the world. I told them this and their reaction was simple, they said I was being disrespectful ! Hahahaha! Also, they even dared to question theoric science for creating potencial death of living beings, then going on the animal testing subject. With such a show of ignorance I didn’t even know how to react when I heard all these things: laugh histerically or feel blatantly outraged.
I eat meat and don’t support vegetarianism and veganism, though these two are a matter of opinions I respect, if they want to do it, go ahead. But extreme vegans, these ecofanatics…I am scientist and as I see it, with an objective point of view, these radicals are no better than religious extremists that say “God created this, God created that, your discoveries are bullshit you fabricated”. I can just say that Ecofanatism = Dogma = Religion
That’s what I have seen
(Sorry if my English is mispelled somewhere, it’s not my native language)
I have met extreme vegans, they were so radical dumbasses that even considered the rights of fungus and bacteria.
You know what? I don’t believe you. I’ve never met a single vegan that’s come anywhere close to this. Such a vegan wouldn’t be able to live a normal life because of the perceived suffering being inflicted.
You deny what I have experienced? the fact you haven’t met a single one like these doesn’t deny there are not any. I am not critizising vegans, I am critizising extreme vegans because, like you said, they couldn’t live without falling into insane contradictions with themselves. Maybe these morons were real extreme vegans with some kind of psychic disorder, or maybe they were not real vegans but just big hypocrites
ok here is the argument that will end all arguments dealing with veganism and eating meat. yes animals are violently slaughtered for their meat and it is not a very moral and nice sight to see… but these animals have been bred in captivity for years and years for the sheer purpose of production, not in the evolutionary, out on their own, darwinistic view, vegans try to prove… domesticated dogs which have been bred through years of imbreading RELY on humans to take care of them. Why do you think you see so many breed specific problems like hip displacia with german shepards. it would be totally wrong to just set all of the domesticated animals free that we have specifically bred for human development.
on the other hand, unless you grow vegetables in your yard without the destruction of any habitat around you, a vegan or vegetarian has no basis for claiming innocence… at the most basic level of societal development… agriculture has brought about many institutions in this world that have brought about murder and torture of HUMAN BEINGS not just animals. Agriculture allows me to sit here at my computer and think about how I think vegans and vegetarians are full of crap… that is just an example of it right there. Without the development of agriculture, I seriously doubt christianity, islam, judaism, buddhism, etc etc would even have come about. and the idea of money and trade probably wouldn’t have become such an intrinsic system like it is now. The fact that agriculture has allowed me and you as human beings to not worry about gathering berries or when the next bison will come around, has allowed human to wonder about crazy things like the afterlife and fight and kill millions of others becuz their belief about the afterlife is wrong, should tell you that agriculture is not innocent.
but even at an immediate level, agriculture and development of land for crap production accounts for acres and acres of destruction of the south american rain forest each year. a land area the size of rhode island EVERY YEAR is destroyed in the south american rain forrest each year for agriculture. Rivers and streams are polluted with fertilizer which leads to algae blooms.. and when these algae blooms die after a 4 or 5 day series of cloudiness.. oxygen depletion through algae bloom decomposition kills THOUSANDS of freshwater fish… more than the total creel take of freshwater fishermen… thousands of migrant workers are paid below minimum wage (because employers have no legal obligation to pay them the proper rate), work 12-16 hour days, exposed to carcinogenic pesticides, and live in substandard housing just so you can sit at home and eat ur cheap apples, tomatoes, and pears…
so yeah this is my pro-meat eating argument… I love eating vegetables and meat… I don’t hate on either… but I know that each one comes from a dirty past… not just meat. That squash I ate tonight was probably farmed by a poor ass farmer that had to have my tax dollars subsidize it, and an illegal poor mexican to pick it… and that steak I ate was prolly brutally murdered by a butcher shop, but you know what? that is the way of the world, and that is human ingenuity and evolution. if I plant or animal doesn’t like it… either grow some nasty ass poisonous thorns or grow a bigger brain than us… until then, we’ll exploit this planet and destroy it morally through slaughtering animals, and ecologically by destorying forests for crop production…
the end
I won’t bother repsonding point-by-point to the last post since most of what’s said there has been responded to a number of times already in this thread, but there were a few things I did want to address.
but these animals have been bred in captivity for years and years for the sheer purpose of production, not in the evolutionary, out on their own, darwinistic view, vegans try to prove…
You’re putting words in our mouths. Every vegan I’ve ever heard has acknowledged the domestication of cows, chickens, dogs, etc.
it would be totally wrong to just set all of the domesticated animals free that we have specifically bred for human development.
And no one has ever suggested that we do so. It’s our responsibility to take care of the situation we created. No one’s saying, “Let all the cows go! Let all the dogs roam freely!” Let’s live peacefully alongside them in our homes, in sanctuaries, in places like that, where an animal’s death isn’t required just so that we can get a piece of steak that tastes good.
And while we’re at it, we can maybe stop the breeding.
that agriculture is not innocent.
Nope. Again, not something we ever claimed. There are issues with a lot of things about our current agricultural system, both animal and plant.
a land area the size of rhode island EVERY YEAR is destroyed in the south american rain forrest each year for agriculture.
And why is this a reason not to be vegan? Remember that eating meat uses significantly more resources than eating lower on the food chain. That meat you eat has to be fed something… and it’s fed a *lot* of it.
and that steak I ate was prolly brutally murdered by a butcher shop
Actually, probably not. When was the last time you saw an honest-to-God butcher shop?
until then, we’ll exploit this planet and destroy it morally through slaughtering animals,
If by “morally” you mean “immorally,” then yes, I agree.
I could understand eating meat if we didn’t mass produce it. The way animals are treated in these farms is inhumane. If you want to go out and shoot your own animal or hunt it down in a natural way, survival of the fittest, that’s fine… that’s the way of nature. But the mass production of anything is terrible for the environment and the animals playing victim to this. So much shit goes on that people don’t know about. I encourage you to look up why vegans are vegans in the first place, it’s nowhere for me to preach it to you, but I do what I do to help do my part.
First, to Ryan, I’d like to say thank you for this site and for your patience. Often in these arguments I find that people get so heated that it becomes fighting for the sake of fighting, rather than the sharing of opinions and thoughtful comments.
Why does it have to be this huge fight? I’ve yet to understand why these meat-eaters, for the lack of a better term, feel the need to come here and ridicule our beliefs and try their hardest to combat the reasoning for our choices. Why do you care so much? I for one, believe it is because you are threatened by people who live any way of life that varies from the norm. How dare we look outside ourselves and try to make concious decisions about what we put in our bodies…
The most upsetting thing about the whole veg/vegan experience for me, is the fact that people so often use the argument, “if you dont eat meat, do you wear leather?” or the previous comments about insects killed in harvesting, etc. No one is claiming to be perfect. What is so wrong about trying to make things better? Yes I am aware there are tons of horrible things going on all over the world and I could do so much more in my life to help out. There is always more that every single person on this planet can do to help others, be them human or animal. I can only speak for myself, but I have a feeling most people here would agree with me. We are not perfect, we do not think we are better than everyone else, we are simply trying to do what we feel is right and make things better. How can you argue that?
Life is precious, we should respect it. We should respect the lives of each other, and even animals. There are alot of people who will try to disagree upon that, but this is my belief. We were put on this earth, like animals to live. It’s not up to us when it’s time to go. We can’t be selfesh and start killing everything because it would taste good, or because we felt like it. We’re hear for a purpose not for being savages. Many factory farms torment animals, and it’s extremely cruel. They have no say upon what happens to them. I worked at a chicken catching farm, I was only there for a day, the horrors of those animals suffering still lingers in me. Half were sick, some were dying or dead. I picked one bird up, and it’s wing fell off. There’s no need for this! Those animals were suffering because of people. We should stop this. It’s ridiculous. I finally made up my mind to be a vegetarian after I read some more upon it on this website. http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp You should see it. I bet it will change your perspectives upon what your eating.
Animals were created for food. Those who put them at the same level as humans are living in a cloud. Do they worry about hurting a vegetable? What about the rights of carrots!! How does the onion feel when you cut it in half?
…”the way animals are treated is inhumane”!!! Think about that……animals are not human….therefore treating them as inhumane (not human) is the way it should be.
The only reason I’m leaving the two previous comments up (from the same IP address, incidentally) is to show that, yes, it is possible to receive the same stupid ass, no sense-making comments a thousand times.
It really makes me sad to read these comments and see how very uneducated and brainwashed some people are. Regardless of whether we’re meant to eat meat or not, how can anyone say that it’s okay to torture living creatures to satisfy a carnivorous palette when there are so many more healthy and humane options available today? And yes, at factory farms, their living conditions are torturous. To argue that the farmed animals are born to be eaten is just ridiculous – Factory farms don’t just hurt animals, they pollute communities, take jobs away from small town farmers, exploit and injure low level workers and participate in animal cruelty practices that would be punishable by law if inflicted upon dogs and cats. Pigs are more intelligent than dogs, by the way – and three year old children for that matter. Other species aren’t ours to do what we like with just because they aren’t as intelligent as us. This is their planet too and the anthropocentristic mindset of post-industrial Western Society is not only destroying the lives of animals and people, but our environment too.
As Leonardo DaVinci said, ” The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men.”
I love that quote too, Lauren, but DaVinci didn’t actually say that. He was a vegetarian, of course, but that particular quote is actually from a movie that was made about him.
Humans are designed to eat meat, we are omnivores which means we need meat & vegtables to have a balanced diet. Our teeth are proof, we have canines & molars.
We only have to cook pork & chicken, there’s a lot of dishes with raw beef, and of course fish.
It’s not ok to torture animals, there’s organic meat if you feel that’s wrong.
We are part of nature too, and this is how nature ‘designed’ us, we aren’t the only omnivores on the planet and I’m sure you wont be forcing other animals to change their ways either. Nature is cruel, that’s just how it is.
I find it amusing to see vegans spout pro-nature this & that, but in the same breath they want it all to change so they can feel better about themselfs.
Change how some treat animals, dont change us for we are animals too and have the same rights.
Hi all
First of all well done Ryan and everyone else involved for being so patient with those who seem determined to try to bury their own guilt about their indefensible immorality with respect to killing others purely for sensory pleasure.
We all know (along with most of them I suspect) that there is no morally defensible argument for eating other creatures, for anyone who is capable of moral judgement to begin with.
I also notice that the old chestnut ‘top of the food chain’ argument is still getting an ‘airing’ from time to time on this forum, so firstly let’s knock that one on the head once and for all.
It is a favourite argument of those who need to convince themselves as much as anyone else, that what they are doing is right. However, as most of us already know, all that argument says is that we have the *ability* to eat whatever we want (including meat of course), it has nothing to do with the actual issue of whether or not it is right. If country ‘a’ has nuclear weapons, and country ‘b’ does not, then that makes country ‘a’ the ‘top of the food chain’ amongst countries, in terms of military might, because it can militarily dominate country ‘b’ anytime it wants to, but of course dominating another country just because you *can* does not make it *right*; and the same concept applies in the case of all individuals.
Another example is that I am physically considerably stronger than my partner, so if I wanted to I could easily dominate and threaten her physically because I have superior physical strength. Using the ‘top of the food chain’ argument it could be said that it’s ok for me to beat her up every day (if it were to give me pleasure to do so, as it sadly does for some) because I am the stronger of the two of us, as nature made me. However, this would obviously be absurd for any morally minded individual, and completely unacceptable behaviour. The same applies to our relationship with every other individual, for the same reasons, not only our human partners or citizens of other countries as in the above examples.
Now that that rather stupid excuse for causing suffering has been put to rest, I have a question for anyone here who tries to live as best they can by an ethical code in terms of their lifestyle choices. I know this is off-topic, but I hope no one will mind, as this question has been bugging me for a while and I’d really like to hear the opionions of fellow vegans on the matter. My question is this…..
Someone pointed out earlier on in this thread that most, if not all, non-human animals cannot be expected to follow a moral code because they are not, to the best of our knowledge, capable of moral understanding. This excuses them from moral responsibility; you cannot be held responsible for something which you are simply not capable of understanding. To me this has always made perfect sense, and justifies the argument that humans should try to live by a moral code (firstly because they can, and secondly because when they do there is a greater net benefit for all of us), whereas non-humans cannot and therefore cannot realistically be expected to do so.
However, all due sarcasm put to one side for a moment, it occurred to me as I read some of the pro-meat eater’s comments here that there may also be humans who are simply not capable of understanding morality. The obviouse and most legitimate example would be somoene who was mentally disabled to a degree which left them at a mental capacity below that needed for moral decision making. Surely this would place them in the same situation as many non-humans, where they should be excused moral responsibility, and so should presumably be allowed to eat meat should they express a preference to do so.
Assuming we accept this premise my next question is how we decide what the cut-off point for this exemption among humans actually is. In many people it may not be as obvioiuse as in the above example of the disabled person. Some meat-eaters on this thread, without wishing to insult them in any way, may simply not be capable of making ethical decisions or understanding the moral issues which veganism tries to address. Admittedly most are in all probability simply immoral (i.e. they know the difference between right and wrong, but choose wrong because it is more convenient for them, and allows them to continue doing what they enjoy, regardless of the greater net suffering they cause). For those people there is no excuse. They are simply selfish.
However, what about those who may just be *amoral* as opposed to immoral ?
Some people out there may be just that , no more no less. Should we accept that these people should be allowed to eat meat on the same basis as we do non-humans (i.e. that they do not posess morality, and so cannot be held responsible for mindlessly following their physical desire to eat meat) ?
We mustn’t forget that moral capability and intellectual intelligence are not always correlated. There have for example been many highly intelligent murderers throughout history who, following psychological evaluation, have been pronounced sociopaths, having great intelligence but no moral understanding whatsoever.
Knowing that to be the case then, is there a potential argument for any one of the meat eating humans writing on this forum (and elsewhere), to eat meat with impunity regardless of their apparent intellect (or lack of it), provided they are genuinely amoral, and we know for a fact that many such people exist throughout human society as well as non-human.
Does anyone not agree with this line of thought ?
I’d appreciate any comments, eespecially from fellow vegans.
Thanks
Human,
If as you say, you are no different from all the other animals, then why do expect to be treated differently from them when it suits you ?
You claim to be the same when it comes to justifying your meat craving, and yet you would be he first to object if someone decided to put you in a factory farm. “You can’t do that I am human , you’re violating my human rights”. I cannot legally kill you, I cannot legally own you etc, etc.
You want to be able to *behave* the same but be *treated* differently.
So you see that your own position is far less consitent, and more hypocritcal than the vegan.
Becci & Lauren
Here is another good quote which you may heard before, and one which I think sums up the point we are all trying to make here…..
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” – Mahatma Gandhi
I really hope you see this, Tina: “treating them as inhumane (not human) is the way it should be.”
May I ask where you found this definition? If I may:
in·hu·mane [in-hyoo-meyn or, often, -yoo-]
–adjective
not humane; lacking humanity, kindness, compassion, etc.
hu·mane [hyoo-meyn or, often, yoo-]
–adjective
characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, esp. for the suffering or distressed: humane treatment of horses.
Thanks. Look next time.
Springer5: I completely agree with everything you said, up to your discourse on amorality. At that point, although it made total sense, denial kicked in. I would hate to believe that the majority of people I know are sociopaths. I think a few gruesome videos and maybe this blog would convince a good few of them, but I think a lot of people lack the self-control to learn to avoid one of the primary elements of their diet. As a solo vegetarian minor in an omnivorous family, my first adventure into the veg world lasted less than a week. My second try was more successful: I’m creeping up to a year at this point, but I’ve always been able to do what’s good for me. I can’t help but think that some of the people who’ve posted on the omnivores’ side of this blog fit the profile of a sociopath pretty well, but there are always the ones who want to deny the fact that eating meat is immoral because they DON’T want to feel like they’re hurting anything. These are the people who invent references to God’s meat-eating habits and the shape of our canines, not to mention our higher intelligence level compared to that of other animals. The evidence is clear, people just don’t want to see it.
And it’s not even as though I feel the need to defend those who eat meat. I don’t think there’s anything to defend. I guess all I’m doing is trying for tolerance, and trying to retain my little faith in the human race. I don’t want to give up hope for the good of people as a whole. Keep in mind, this is from someone who has never had any criticism from meat-eaters. People respect my opinions, and I try to respect theirs.
Great site guys. I am a vegetarian and for generations my family and many other families i know have been on a strictly vegetarian diet (milk and milk based products are used) and i have not met any vegetarian till now who takes vitamin supplements to compensate for the lack of meat. This maybe due to the fact that our dietary and culinary patterns differ . However my point is that a healthy life is possible with a strictly vegetarian diet. Coming to the “animals are different from humans “aspect… yes we are different from them ..we have a brain , a realization of self ….so use your brain … its illogical to cause unnecessary pain. Quit thinking like a lion or a tiger . Think like a human.
Animals do have a “brain” and my use of “we have a brain” refers to our superior intelligence…and its interesting to note that the major difference of the human brain from the animal brain lies in teh cerebral cortex. The limbic ( if i remember the name correctly) part of the brain shows almost the same structure in both humans and animals (mammals to be precise). The limbic part is the seat of pain and sensation while the cerebral region is the seat of intelligence. I add this second part incase someone wants to refute my statement about brains.
Hi everybody, why do people eat meat?I would say because of their egoist taste of it!They would say that they need protein and so on, protein can be found in vegetables also,we don’t have to kill a poor animal just for his meat! Go to a slaughther’s place and see how animals suffer when inpittiful so-called human “cut their heads” away!I am a vegan,cos been vegan saves
the life of so many innocent animals? Do you know the cost of just eating meat?the earth is “suffering” because of the “meat productions”. Meat-eaters have thier ouwn choice but they have to think again and agin about thier way of life. I won’t say much, just note that animals are more counscious than the vegetables! Hospitals are there for MEAT-EATERS.Try veganism and be healthy.
thanks for this site
vegans worldwide,I live in Lome Togo, I would like to have friends , my mail is jorrikis14@yahoo.fr
bye(sorry for my English,I am a french-speeking man)
“Why do people eat meat?”
I think the primary reason which is probably true for 99% (or more) of the meat-eating population is – They were raised that way.
Children are very susceptible. If a mother or father feeds their child meat, then of course that child will eat it. They are naturally going to do exactly what their parents teach them to do (evolutionary speaking – this improves their survivability). Most of us, at least in the western world, were raised this way. Most people continue to eat meat into adulthood, because it is exactly what they have been trained to do throughout their entire life. Some people (very few) go against this training and decide to become vegetarian. In doing so however, they receive a lot of criticism from regular people. In general, people don’t like being told that something that they have always done is ‘wrong’ or ‘unethical’. For this reason, meat-eaters will defend the practice vehemently. Even if all the facts state the opposite, people will invent reasons (no matter how stupid) to maintain the status quo.
Now this post’s intention isn’t to defend meat-eaters, just to explain their behaviour. Although meat-eaters will usually state other reasons as to why they eat meat (e.g. it tastes good, high nutrients, top of the food chain, etc.) these are all just invented reasons to try to justify to themselves that it is perfectly okay. Actually, I can virtually guarantee that they never thought of any of these reasons before being questioned. It’s only after someone confronts them about their food choices that suddenly all these arguments come out. I doubt anyone gobbling down a steak every thought “Man, I’m at the top of the food chain, so that’s why I’m eating dead cow”. No, of course not. They do it because they have always done it and almost everyone – not only condoned it – but actively encouraged it.
I remember times when I was a child in Australia standing around a BBQ with my extended family and my uncle saying words to the effect of “Come on matey! Get a steak into ya’! You want to be big and strong don’t ya’?” – Now what child can possibly stand up against that?
But it’s not all doom and gloom for vegetarians. (very) Slowly, governments and health organistations are starting to realise that meat isn’t all that’s it cracked up to be. In the last 10 or more years, a lot of studies have been coming out talking about the bad effects of a diet high in meat (especially red and processed meats). Nearly all (if not all) health organisations have stated that people should increase their fruit and veg intake. Clearly they have realised that humans get far more of their nutrients from plant matter than meat. Here in Australia, the meat industry have been trying to fight this growing trend. They have been ‘advertising’ meat and dairy to be ‘necessary for a healthy diet’ using famous actors, scientists and doctors. Yes, many people fall for these so-called ‘ads’ and I often hear meat-eaters quoting them as their reference (although these are only commercials for big companies, they are often interpreted by their viewers as ’scientific studies’ – exactly how the meat industry want them to be seen).
Anyway, I think the truth about human diet will eventually be revealed. I have noticed a lot of changes just in my short life of 30 years. As a slight analogy – it was only about 10-15 years ago where smoking was extremely common. Many people that I knew smoked and most of them refused to admit that it was an unhealthy habit. Back in those days, if I was in a bar and said to one of my friends “I bet you in the next few years, smoking will be banned in pubs and clubs”, they would have laughed at me. But now, at least in Australia, smoking is illegal in pretty much all pubs, clubs, restaurants, etc. This goes to show that things do change and they can change pretty quickly when the momentum starts to build.
So my final words to vegetarians – Continue what you’re doing. Promote vegeatrianism. Question meat-eaters when the opportunity arises. Get on the online forums and debate with the hard-line meat-eaters. Don’t give in to their silly logic. The more presence we show, the more the word will spread.
From a personal perspective, it was the online communities that eventually swayed me. I was never a hard-lined meat eater, but like most of them, I was prepared to defend my position. But after months of hearing all the vegetarian arguments, I eventually came round and had a moment of enlightenment. And since then, I have never turned back (despite family / doctors / friends telling me otherwise – yes, seriously!). Now they have all come around and realise that I’m not turning back, and some of them now even go out of their way to invite me over and cook me veg meals!! I think it’s their way of saying “We agree with you – but we’re a little scared to go that way ourselves because of all the crap we’ll receive from other people”.
Good luck to all of you and enjoy healthy and compassionate eating!
It seems like every debate I come across on the issue of eating meat versus vegetarianism/veganism boils down to nothing more than an argument over who is morally superior. Have we all forgotten that eating is far more than just a moral issue? It is also an economic issue as well as one of location and culture. I don’t eat because it is the morally correct thing to do. I eat because my survival (and happiness) depends on it. We behave as if it is some black and white issue with wrong and one side and right on the other, when in reality, the most we can decide is which one we think is the lesser of two evils. It is absolutely necessary to kill in order to eat (live), whether one is vegetarian or meat eater. Vegetarians give some very good arguments in favor of their choices, and meat eaters also give some good arguments for theirs. I personally think it would be better (although I don’t do it myself) to eat whatever is in season locally, than to import fruits and vegetables that are not native to where I live (at great cost to the environment). That means during winter I would have to eat more meat because of the unavailability of fresh, locally grown produce. I also think that this kind of conversation only happens in affluent countries where people have more food choices. I cannot imagine telling a starving human being in Africa that it is immoral to eat animal flesh. It could be argued that wherever there are more options, we should opt for whatever we each think is less harmful to the environment while being the most beneficial to us. The best diet for the protection of the environment is a moderate one. Is the overeating of only plants morally better than moderate meat-eating? There are many unanswered questions and perhaps a little humility is in order, because ultimately it comes down to personal choices which are based on personal values.